Author Topic: craps should be legit, I believe  (Read 18156 times)

biggerbirdbrain

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Re: craps should be legit, I believe
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2008, 11:43:48 AM »
Well, another vote in FAVOR.

Thanks for that, natalya-p (my what a long and complicated name you picked, but certainly unique). So far, I don't hear too many dissident voices yet. Unless those who might be are reluctant to speak up. One never truly knows what the majority think, since it is usually silent!  ;)

Alan W

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Re: craps should be legit, I believe
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2008, 06:23:47 PM »
I'll wait a little longer for more comments before making any suggestions on dealing with the issue, but there are a couple of things I'd like to say in the meantime.

One of the potential problems with any solution is the confusion players might experience over which plurals are allowed and which forbidden. But I notice in my own playing that I regularly fail to think of words ending in S, even when they've been in the list since day one, and have appeared in countless puzzles. Ides was one I missed recently, but I also tend to forget about odds, noes, news, hers and I think on occasion oops. Since we probably wouldn't want to remove all of these words, the conclusion seems to be that some of us will be confused, no matter what. Maybe it's all just part of the fun.

Natalya P asked about the etymology of crap and craps. There are entries for both on the Online Etymology Dictionary: crap and craps. It seems that craps comes from crab, while crap comes originally from a Latin word for chaff, in line with the older English meanings of the word as rubbish, that which is discarded. The site dismisses as folk etymology the notion that the word crap is related to Thomas Crapper, a 19th century plumber. Some years ago I worked for Melbourne's water and sewerage authority, the Board of Works, and there was a whole family of Crappers working there as engineers. (One of them, Geoff Crapper, has since left the organisation, and become a vocal public critic of its policies.) I'm sure that if the chronology had been right people would have thought these Crappers were the source of the word crap.
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biggerbirdbrain

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Re: craps should be legit, I believe
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2008, 10:57:00 PM »
Hope lives!  :angel:

rogue_mother

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Re: craps should be legit, I believe
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2008, 02:05:39 AM »
Quote
I think the real issue is whether allowing these words would reduce or increase people's confusion about which words are allowed.

It seems to me that we are at the maximum point of confusion about which words are allowed right now, which is why this type of question keeps coming up.  Unless you include every word ever, though, there will always be at least some confusion.  New words come into use; old ones fade into oblivion.

To me the difference between crap and craps is the same as the difference between blue and blues, new and news, odd and odds, although I will grant you that crap can stand as a noun in its own right, while people don't generally use blue, new or odd as nouns.  But adding the "s" completely changes the sense of the word.  There are quite a few of your singular/plural examples that I would quibble with, but many of them do seem to be analogous to blue/blues and so on, or words where the apparently plural form means something completely different from the singular.
Inside the Beltway, Washington, DC metropolitan area

biggerbirdbrain

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Re: craps should be legit, I believe
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2008, 12:02:57 PM »
Is English not a living language? Why should the fact that adding an "s" legitimately and completely changes the meaning of a word keep it from being added?

Sorry, but I'm standing my ground on this, although it may be a shrinking island.  ;)

Alan W

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Re: craps should be legit, I believe
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2008, 02:52:08 PM »
I think we lost a couple of posts from this thread when the system was upgraded on 1 Feb. I remember reading one (from birdy, perhaps?) questioning some of the words in my list. I couldn't remember what any of those words were until I saw this in the newspaper yesterday:

Quote
BOXERS made from bamboo, trunks infused with vitamin C, Y-fronts that boost your bulge and briefs that lift your bottom - these are just some of the new undergarments fuelling a boom in the Australian men's underwear market, now worth $600 million a year.

"Wonderbum: part of undie revolution or a Y-affront?", The Sunday Age, 10 February 2008

One of the words queried was trunks. I listed it because of its use to mean "men's shorts, worn especially for swimming or boxing", in which sense, it has no corresponding singular form. But anyone seeing the word in a Chihuahua solution might well think instead of luggage, elephants or (if they're American) compartments in cars, and wonder why the word was accepted.

Some of the words I listed relate to even more unusual usages. One of these words is ... words. I listed it because of the usage as in "we had words", where words means angry talk. On reflection, I don't think words should be allowed - unless we were to decide on allowing all plurals. Not only is it a fairly unusual idiom, but it's closely related to words as the plural of word - in fact, it takes a little thought to convince yourself that, in the angry talk sense, there is no singular ("we had a word" means something quite different).

Other examples involving unusual usages are bats (crazy), bones (a percussion instrument), falls (a waterfall) and links (a golf course).

I think blues, news and odds are at the other end of the spectrum. It's hard to think of examples where these words are used as plurals that have singular forms. In fact, I doubt that you can for news and odds.

On this scale, I think craps is more like blues than words. That is, it has a strong case for inclusion. But I think it has to be recognised that there is a scale, and there will be borderline cases. I don't believe it's possible to formulate a hard and fast rule.

There's been a virtual moratorium on admitting plural-like words since our earlier discussion of the issue, where strong words were spoken on both sides of the debate. So, even some words that obviously should be allowed, like theses, haven't been admitted.

I'm happy to go back to considering plural-like words on their individual merits, but I'd be happier if I felt there was a broad acceptance of the criteria we should be applying.

So, what do people think about trunks?
Alan Walker
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birdy

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Re: craps should be legit, I believe
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2008, 03:10:26 PM »
well, hey, I don't mind being the target here -  I think trunks, pants, knickers, boxers, trousers, undies, panties, bloomers, and all those other words we use for garments spanning the territory between the waist (or below) and the crotch (or below) should be allowed, except for thong, which I see quite often in the singular.  That is, I see the word, not the thong itself, fortunately.

Let the battle begin!

Gaye

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Re: craps should be legit, I believe
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2008, 03:47:57 PM »
I agree!
Gaye
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technomc

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Re: craps should be legit, I believe
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2008, 08:16:35 PM »
Howdi Viral et al,

Your 'BOXERS' quote was particularly interesting to me...funny about that eh!  ;D

You asked us what we think about 'trunks'...speaking only for myself i quite like them as long as they're not too baggy..i digress..i think the same about that word as i do about my 'pants'....

Birdy summed it up eloquently enough down below [sorry about that!!]....

If the word has a completely different meaning by adding an 's', it is, surely, a completely different word so should be allowed in on it's own merits!! [Well, that's what i think for what that's worth!!]


What i want to know is ...and this is really important...how on earth would you guys be able to 'dress' comfortably wearing bamboo boxers.... a little stiff me fears....and how would you sit down???

I shall be worried all day now, thinking about this.... :-\

biggerbirdbrain

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Re: craps should be legit, I believe
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2008, 11:03:30 PM »
Bring it on -- why not? Boxers as undergarments are completely different from the plural form of the pugilists who wear them!  ;D

technomc

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Re: craps should be legit, I believe
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2008, 12:09:05 AM »
Absolutely threeb.....

I might attempt to make myself a pair of light aluminium 'briefs' during my engineering lesson tomorrow.
A cross between a chastity belt [shut it Linda!!] and a thong.... :-\

biggerbirdbrain

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Re: craps should be legit, I believe
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2008, 12:11:06 AM »
OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Could be a solution to what Linda bemoaned earlier about there not being enough virgin's blood for her larder of hex materials!

Linda

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Re: craps should be legit, I believe
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2008, 12:14:22 AM »
Think you should get on to it right now, T!!  >:D

technomc

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Re: craps should be legit, I believe
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2008, 12:14:45 AM »
I'd chamfer all the edges threeb....wouldn't want any nasty nicks now would we???

biggerbirdbrain

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Re: craps should be legit, I believe
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2008, 12:20:33 AM »
Heaven forbid thou wouldst chafe thy creamy thighs!  >:D