Author Topic: Two reclassification requests  (Read 844 times)

Morbius

  • Cryptoverbalist
  • *
  • Posts: 564
    • View Profile
Two reclassification requests
« on: February 23, 2023, 11:48:37 AM »
1.  Some time ago I requested that orated be reclassified as a common word.  Alan had a different view and decided to make it rare, along with orate.  Since then, a few players have questioned that decision and I've found it problematic, especially considering that oration is common.  I'm not sure of the status of orator and oratory.  If they're both common, that would support the case for reclassifying orate and orated.  If they're not common, they probably should be.  So, Alan, I'm asking you to please reconsider the status of orate and orated.

2.  Also some time ago I suggested adding the words vape, vaped and vaping to the Chi lexicon.  Alan agreed and added them as rare words.  Since then, I think the words have become much more widely known.  I doubt there would be many people today who don't know what vaping is.  So, I'm requesting that vape, vaped and vaping be reclassified as common words.  (I'm not sure whether vaper was included in Alan's original judgement.  I'm not too fussed about its status.)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2023, 11:54:00 AM by Morbius »

blackrockrose

  • Cryptoverbalist
  • *
  • Posts: 564
  • Muswellbrook, Australia
    • View Profile
    • Rosetta Writes
Re: Two reclassification requests
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2023, 04:28:30 PM »
I can't support 1, but I heartily concur with 2.

Morbius

  • Cryptoverbalist
  • *
  • Posts: 564
    • View Profile
Re: Two reclassification requests
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2023, 07:44:21 PM »
I forgot to include orating in my earlier post.  I think it should be common too.  So, to summarise, I think orate, orated, orating, oration, orator and oratory should all be common.

2dognight

  • Linguissimo
  • *****
  • Posts: 284
    • View Profile
Re: Two reclassification requests
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2023, 08:04:26 PM »
And don't forget oratorio

Wibbly Bits

  • Logologist
  • **
  • Posts: 70
  • Perth, Western Australia
    • View Profile
Re: Two reclassification requests
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2023, 08:51:32 PM »
I agree with the vape words, but I'm not so sure about the others. Most of us would have read about or spoken about a famous orator, giving a speech that might be called an oration. How many times have you seen orate, orated or orating in print, or used in discussion? I would guess virtually never, so I suggest they remain as rare words.

Oratorio is another beast altogether, referring to a musical piece that contains some spoken elements, and should probably remain common.

Morbius

  • Cryptoverbalist
  • *
  • Posts: 564
    • View Profile
Re: Two reclassification requests
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2023, 10:02:05 PM »
While it's true that words like orate, orated and orating don't come up very often in everyday conversation or print, frequency of usage isn't the primary criterion for commonness.  It's whether or not a reasonably well-read native English speaker would know the word.  I reckon if you know oration and orator, you'd also know the root word (even if you don't use it all that often). 

ridethetalk

  • Eulexic
  • ***
  • Posts: 2389
  • Energy efficiency - saving money and the climate
    • View Profile
    • Ride the Talk
Re: Two reclassification requests
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2023, 10:02:55 PM »
I'd tend to agree with you Morbius...
The greenest watt ever produced is the one you never use. Playing as jk1956 & John is my name.
When we come out of the Covid-19 crisis, we need to make sure recovery efforts address the Climate Crisis (which can't be solved using social distancing!)

Jacki

  • Cryptoverbalist
  • *
  • Posts: 972
    • View Profile
Re: Two reclassification requests
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2023, 09:38:43 PM »
I agree wholeheartedly with you Morbius and I feel all the orate words should be common.
Late blooming azaleas tricked by the warmer weather into flowering

Alan W

  • Administrator
  • Eulexic
  • *****
  • Posts: 4969
  • Melbourne, Australia
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Two reclassification requests
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2023, 03:26:28 PM »
The addition of vape and related words to our lexicon was back in 2015. Doesn't time fly! Since then the word has certainly been used fairly frequently in news media and other publications. I think it's time to make vape, vaping and vaped common. We do allow vaper, but I feel that can remain rare.
Alan Walker
Creator of Lexigame websites

Morbius

  • Cryptoverbalist
  • *
  • Posts: 564
    • View Profile
Re: Two reclassification requests
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2023, 06:59:26 PM »
Thanks Alan.  Are you still considering my other request regarding orate etc. or is it dead in the water?

Alan W

  • Administrator
  • Eulexic
  • *****
  • Posts: 4969
  • Melbourne, Australia
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Two reclassification requests
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2023, 02:27:55 PM »
Don't worry, Morbius. When I toss that request overboard I'll let you know!

Seriously, I'll think it over: there have been a few forumites raising the issue over the years, so possibly my earlier decision needs revising.
Alan Walker
Creator of Lexigame websites

TRex

  • Eulexic
  • ***
  • Posts: 2041
  • ~50 miles from Chicago, in the Corn (maize) Belt
    • View Profile
Re: Two reclassification requests
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2023, 03:35:35 AM »
I'm of two minds regarding orate.

One thought is that I dislike adding common words because it makes attaining a rosette more difficult.

OTOH, reclassifying orate from common to rare has always struck me as a 'dumbing down' of Chihuahua because it seems — at least to me — that it is a word which any 'well read' person should know without having to resort to a dictionary.

Alan W

  • Administrator
  • Eulexic
  • *****
  • Posts: 4969
  • Melbourne, Australia
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Two reclassification requests
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2023, 02:49:43 PM »
All right, let's talk about orate.

This issue first came up in 2012 when Morbius queried the fact that orated was rare though orate was common. Over the next few years a few others commented on this discrepancy. Eventually, in 2017, I responded as follows:

Quote
As for orate and orated, this issue has been raised a couple of times before, and has been awaiting a response from me. Morbius first raised the matter in 2012. Then, as now, he suggested that both words should be common. In 2015 pat also queried the apparent inconsistency.

I'll deal with it now, but not in the way you suggest Morbius. I think orate (and orating, which is also currently common) should be made rare.

It seems that orate emerged in the late 1800s as a back-formation from the much older oration and orator. (The OED identifies an older use of orate, but this word had dropped out of use.) The usual meaning of orate is to speak in a pompous manner. In other words, it has a specific sarcastic sense, and is not just a verb meaning to speak in public. This clip from the Google Ngrams viewer gives an idea of how infrequently this verb is used compared to the related nouns.



The lines on the chart are colour-coded: orate, orated and orating are the horizontal lines at the bottom of the graph. This is consistent with usage percentages in other corpora.

I believe orate is quite rare. It's true that a sizeable percentage of Chi players regularly play it, but that's probably because it appears so often in the solution, its letters all being common ones. And many people also play orated when the letters are there, having become accustomed to the idea that orate is a word. So orate, orated and orating will all be rare from now on.

My main grounds, then, were that orate and its inflections are used vastly less often than oration, orator, etc, and that orate is not the root word, but a back-formation, with mostly a sarcastic sense.

Merriam-Webster's Concise Dictionary of English Usage says of orate:

Quote
Many commentators have noted, and our evidence confirms, that this back-formation from the noun oration is frequently used in a humorous or disparaging way to described impassioned or pompous speech...

It is also used straightforwardly, often with reference to the past...

The dictionary gives some examples of both senses of the word. It may be that the "straightforward" use of the word is becoming a little more widespread. An article in The Conversation in January this year:

Quote
Yet in Southern cities, there was no one like Frederick Douglass, who used his writing and orating skills to fight for abolition...

A Guardian piece, in the same month:

Quote
He's a natural at orating because of his background.

And in the Washington Post this month:

Quote
Students debate or orate about controversial topics surrounding free speech and the Constitution.

In any case, in all the comments people have made in the Forum about this issue, I don't think anyone has said they didn't know of the existence of the word orate. From now on orate, orated and orating will all be classed as common, as are oration, orator and oratory.
Alan Walker
Creator of Lexigame websites

ridethetalk

  • Eulexic
  • ***
  • Posts: 2389
  • Energy efficiency - saving money and the climate
    • View Profile
    • Ride the Talk
Re: Two reclassification requests
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2023, 03:31:12 PM »
Well said...
The greenest watt ever produced is the one you never use. Playing as jk1956 & John is my name.
When we come out of the Covid-19 crisis, we need to make sure recovery efforts address the Climate Crisis (which can't be solved using social distancing!)

Morbius

  • Cryptoverbalist
  • *
  • Posts: 564
    • View Profile
Re: Two reclassification requests
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2023, 06:57:23 PM »
Yay!  Thanks Alan.  :)