Naiver

[blackrockrose]

'Naiver' came up as common in yesterday's RENOVATION game. It didn't occur to me to play it because it's a French word and I don't think it can be subjected to English rules for forming standard comparative adjectives. (The French would say 'plus naive'.)

I suggest downgrading it to 'Rare'.

[Jacki]

Naive is more common than brûlée I would think.

[blackrockrose]

Hi Jacki

I'm not suggesting downgrading 'naive' - that should definitely be common.

'Naiver' is the word I'd like to see reclassified as rare.

[birdy]

I would probably not have thought of naiver if I'd played that game, but I'm fine with it being uncommon - I don't think I've ever seen or heard it used.

I know it's of French origin, but I would assume that a word borrowed from another language would then be treated like an English word as far as comparative formations are concerned.  I would be a lot more likely to say "more naive" but not because it is a translation of the French. There are some words that just "sound wrong" when adding the "r" or "er" - I'd never say "purpler," for instance.  I vaguely think I once learned a rule for comparative adjectives, but can't remember what it was.

Anybody remember?

[mkenuk]

.  I vaguely think I once learned a rule for comparative adjectives, but can't remember what it was.

Anybody remember?

The basic rule is that one-syllable adjectives form their comparatives with -er and their superlatives with -est, with a doubling of the consonant where appropriate.
long / longer / longest and fat / fatter / fattest.

Adjectives ending with y form their comparatives with -ier and -iest
angry / angrier / angriest etc

So far, so good.

Then it gets more difficult. Two-syllable adjectives are the problem.

Even Michael Swan ('Practical English Usage') can't give a clear ruling on two-syllable adjectives - and what Michael Swan doesn't know about English Grammar can be inscribed on the head of a pin.

'Some two-syllable adjectives can have -er and -est, especially adjectives ending in an unstressed vowel' ( He gives narrow, simple, clever and quiet as examples)

Then he goes on  'with many two-syllable adjectives, eg polite and common,  both -er and -est and more / most are possible. With others, only more / most is possible.'

Adjectives of three or more syllables have more / most

(Alice's 'Curiouser and curiouser' is deliberate poetic licence on the part of Lewis Carroll of course.)

naive is a two-syllable adjective, with a stressed second syllable. (I don't know how to add the diaeresis over the i)

To me, its comparative and superlative forms should be more / most naive.
I'll happily keep on playing naiver and naivest, however, until they are reclassified!




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[Alan W]

I think I've already offered my opinion on other occasions that there seem to be no absolute rules regarding this issue. In writing, I would go with whatever sounds most natural. Sometimes that could depend on the context.

Merriam-Webster says that naiver and naivest are the comparative and superlative forms. Wiktionary says more naive and most naive. I didn't see any guidance from other dictionaries.

In practice, the more and most naive forms are used vastly more often than naiver and naivest. Where these less favoured forms are used, they don't necessarily sound wrong:

Shia LaBeouf gives his most nuanced performance yet as Hardy’s younger and naiver bro Jack.

If Hipkins didn't realise what was going on his crime is being the naivest idiot in parliament.

Nevertheless, I think these words are so rarely used that they should no longer be classed as common.