Author Topic: "Clothes" vs "clothe" and related Plural Issues  (Read 54913 times)

a non-amos

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Re: "Clothes" vs "clothe" and related Plural Issues
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2007, 03:10:26 PM »
I merely wished to point out that allowing all "s" words would simplify Alan's task.  I would still enjoy Chihuahua, no matter what the decision.

Alan's list is only the tip of this iceberg.  He has only included articles of clothing.
Carpe digitus.
(Roughly translated, this is possibly the world's oldest "pull my finger" joke)

Dave

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Re: "Clothes" vs "clothe" and related Plural Issues
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2007, 03:58:34 PM »
I'm afraid I have a bit more to say on this one, mainly from the rather selfish perspective that apart from it being quite illogical to extend the list endlessly (and I think that "does" is a very unfortunate precedent in this regard), I hate the idea of having to add a truckload of words that can be created with minimal intellectual endeavour when I'm constrained to dictate the bloody things a single letter at a time using the international radio alphabet.  If you don't think that sounds particularly onerous, I can only suggest that you try it yourself!

(I did say it was a rather selfish perspective  :angel:!)
The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerneā€¦

Binkie

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Re: "Clothes" vs "clothe" and related Plural Issues
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2007, 04:05:08 PM »
I rather think that may be the deciding factor, Dave!
All those in favour of leaving things the way they are, say "Aye" !

technomc

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Re: "Clothes" vs "clothe" and related Plural Issues
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2007, 07:45:52 PM »
Now! Now! children....

Stop all this bickering [nothing to do with you Binks..] at once..... >:(

There is no way that VIRAL is going to allow all plural words ending in 's'...
It is not going to happen...
Each suggestion should be taken on it's own merit, as it always has done....leaving VIRAL to decide it's ultimate fate..

And i second Binks' motion....
 :angel:

I love a good scrap...it is so good for the blood circulation...
I'm off to sort out my undies...

biggerbirdbrain

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Re: "Clothes" vs "clothe" and related Plural Issues
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2007, 08:32:56 PM »
I, for one more, 3-B the motion -- isn't that what I said yesterday near the BEGINNING of this thread in the first place???
(how quickly they forget ...!)  >:D >:D

Alan W

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Re: "Clothes" vs "clothe" and related Plural Issues
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2007, 05:12:13 PM »
I want to respond to some of the comments in this topic, but having written an inordinately long post in another topic today, I'm going to leave this one till tomorrow. Just to let you know it hasn't been forgotten.

... Watch this space ...
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Tania

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Re: "Clothes" vs "clothe" and related Plural Issues
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2007, 06:15:34 PM »
My vote is to leave things the way they are




Alan W

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Re: "Clothes" vs "clothe" and related Plural Issues
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2007, 03:10:43 PM »
The idea of allowing all plurals has been discussed before - we even had a poll on the question, which was in favour of keeping things as they are. Of course, the views expressed then don't have to decide the issue for all time - there have been many new forumites since then and, in any case, we're entitled to change our minds.

However, there does seem to be a lot of merit in the opinion voiced by a few in the earlier discussion, and in this topic, that allowing all plurals would just add a tedious chore whenever there's an S among the letters. On this issue, I think Dave's remark about the onerous task of playing letters via a voice recognition program probably has a wider relevance. Because what is an all-too-obvious burden to Dave may well be a more subliminal annoyance to players using keyboard or mouse. Let's face it, the purpose of any game is to entertain, so anything that imposes boring repetitive tasks is to be avoided where possible.

[A digression: I recently read in a book about game design that philosopher Bernard Suits has offered the definition "playing a game is a voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles." The most efficient way of getting a ball into a hole in the ground is to carry it to just above the hole and drop it in, not to start from a great distance away and whack the ball with a variety of sticks. In the case of Chihuahua, the most efficient way of finding nine-letter words composed of a given set of letters would be to use an anagram dictionary or website, and there are also high productivity ways of finding all the other words. But the whole point of the game is to use your knowledge and mental powers (although there seem to be a few people who haven't grasped that). If it were a different type of game, dexterity in clicking tiles might be part of the challenge, as it is in games with a timer, like Bookworm et al. But Chihuahua is designed to challenge the mental powers only, so the mechanics of entering the words should be as unobtrusive as possible.]


Allowing all plurals would not necessarily result in bigger puzzles. If we kept the existing method of creating puzzles, the number of common words would always fall within a certain range. So a nine-letter word containing an S that would not be used at present because it doesn't make enough words might be allowable once plurals were added in. Meanwhile, other words might be ruled out because they produced too many words when plurals are included. But in any case, the situation would remain that the skill factor in the puzzle would be watered down.

So if we assume for now that most plurals ending in S will continue to be excluded, how should we handle the special cases such as the pants tribe of words?

I always intended that a plural with no singular should be allowed, even where there is another word spelled exactly as the singular would be if it existed. In other words, the existence of the word more does not rule out the word mores. This can apply even where the words are related in derivation and meaning, as with new and news - new is not the singular of news, and news is not the plural of new. Since the forum started, we have added afters to the allowable words, using the same reasoning.

I don't know if there are any such cases among the clothing plurals listed earlier in this topic. Brief is usually an adjective, with no plural, but briefs can be sets of documents prepared for a lawyer. A knicker can be a marble made of baked clay.

So this is where things get interesting - the situation Viz was talking about where two words are written in the same way, as in knickers, underwear and knickers, marbles. In this category too, there have always been some plural words allowed in Chihuahua, in cases where the word that would be disallowed is extremely rare. I mentioned a couple of examples in an earlier discussion:

Quote
For example HOOVES is the plural of HOOF and also of HOOVE (a disease of cattle). Since the second meaning seems very obscure, HOOVES is allowed. In fact even GOES comes into this category, because there is a word GOE - apparently an archaic version of GO - but it would be ludicrous to exclude GOES on that account.

This the reason both STIE and STIES are allowed (an example that comes up in the puzzle quite often), STIES as the plural of STY. I presume STIE is an obscure variant of STYE.

In the process of considering various candidate words over recent weeks, we seemed to move to the position that the disallowed word didn't need to be especially rare - it was sufficient that it be a different word from the one under consideration. Even so, I think most of the words we admitted are more common than their alter egos. Does, as a form of the verb do, is one of the most frequently used words in the language - certainly much more common than does, female deers. Blues, the mood or music form, is more commonly used than blues, shades of blue (or, in Australia, arguments). And I think the same goes for lees, meths, shingles and mons. However, the argument is not applicable to one word that we recently decided to accept (although it hasn't been added to the list yet): hives, in the bee dwelling sense, is probably at least as common a word as hives, the medical condition.

If we used a rarity criterion, I think we would allow knickers, but not pants. But trying to apply some such rule to a long list of words would undoubtedly raise numerous borderline cases.

I think we should keep discussing these issues, but I'll finish up by outlining some of the other groups of words that might have a claim to being allowed. In my investigations to date I've found:

  • About 40 words ending with ics, e.g. acoustics
  • About 20 words ending with ings, e.g. combings
  • About 30 words that are not plurals at all, e.g. besides
  • About 70 other words that seem to have no singular, ranging from amends (as in "making amends") to yaws (a disease)
Alan Walker
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Binkie

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Re: "Clothes" vs "clothe" and related Plural Issues
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2007, 03:26:17 PM »
I have only one question.....do you ever have time to sleep?

technomc

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Re: "Clothes" vs "clothe" and related Plural Issues
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2007, 05:28:46 PM »
Thank you VIRAL....
I've got a headache now and need to go and lie down in a darkened room...
Goodness, you are a clever clogs...
Whatever you have decided[ ...was a there a decision in there?] is fine with me..just so long and you stop talking about my knickers....pants, briefs, thongs, smalls, boxers etc....
I am getting fed up with them being an international subject of controversy...they have been gone through enough...
GET YOUR HANDS OFF MY KNICKERS...
 :angel:

Alan W

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Re: "Clothes" vs "clothe" and related Plural Issues
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2007, 05:52:54 PM »
This thing's grown bigger than your knickers now, T!

And have I made a decision? No, except to agree with those who opposed the admission of all plurals. As for the other issues, I'll wait to see what further comments might be made.
Alan Walker
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technomc

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Re: "Clothes" vs "clothe" and related Plural Issues
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2007, 07:52:49 PM »
VIRAL....
you naughty boy...
I don't know that i want to know about your thing getting bigger when you are discussing my knickers...
Is that allowed over the virtual airways...
 :-[

biggerbirdbrain

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Re: "Clothes" vs "clothe" and related Plural Issues
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2007, 08:42:42 PM »

anonsi

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Re: "Clothes" vs "clothe" and related Plural Issues
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2007, 11:08:38 PM »
Alan, as far as brief goes...You mentioned that it is usually an adjective with no plural.  This is true, however it can be used in the sense of a legal brief as well.  In this instance, it does have a plural - legal briefs.

So it appears that there is no clear-cut solution.  As has been noted...once you start down the path of allowing some words, you will have more and more requests for others.  Before you know it, all words ending in s will be allowed.

Alan W

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Re: "Clothes" vs "clothe" and related Plural Issues
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2007, 11:20:06 AM »
Alan, as far as brief goes...You mentioned that it is usually an adjective with no plural.  This is true, however it can be used in the sense of a legal brief as well.  In this instance, it does have a plural - legal briefs.

That was the point I was trying to make, anonsi.
Alan Walker
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