Author Topic: Nigger & negro  (Read 5507 times)

Tom

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Nigger & negro
« on: December 19, 2016, 10:17:44 AM »
I am possibly going over old ground, but could someone please clarify for me why 'nigger' is a 'common' word whilst 'negro' is classified rare? This has come up in a couple of more recent games. Both are probably unacceptable in today's parlance (rightly so) but making one common and one rare seems, on the face of it, to make one acceptable and the other not so.

mkenuk

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Re: Nigger & negro
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2016, 10:53:51 AM »
Simply going by what's in the COD, 'Negro' is written with a capital letter; the other word isn't.

MK

Tom

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Re: Nigger & negro
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2016, 07:44:49 PM »
So why is it accepted at all?

Alan W

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Re: Nigger & negro
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2016, 10:58:04 PM »
Nowadays the word Negro, when it is used at all, is almost invariably written with a capital N. However, it wasn't always so, as can be seen in this chart from the Google Ngram Viewer:



The lower case version seems to have been standard up until the early 20th century. The word negro is written that way in books by authors such as Edith Wharton, Henry James, Jack London and Upton Sinclair (although the word has a capital N in the Project Gutenberg version of The Jungle). As late as the 1950s, Allen Ginsberg used the lower-case N in "Howl":

Quote
I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked,
dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix...

The process that resulted in Negro being usually written with a capital N was described in a 2014 article by Lori L Tharps in the New York Times. In the 1920s W. E. B. Du Bois started campaigning for the word to be capitalised, on the grounds that all other words naming groups of people were written with an initial capital. In 1929, after an argument, the Encyclopedia Britannica agreed to use the capital N when it printed an article submitted by Du Bois. In 1930 the New York Times announced that it would begin writing the word as Negro, saying:

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It is not merely a typographical change, it is an act in recognition of racial respect for those who have been generations in the 'lower case.'

The issue had been raised earlier, as indicated in this quote from a 1906 Harper's Weekly article cited by the OED:

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Professor Booker T. Washington, being politely interrogated..as to whether negroes ought to be called 'negroes' or 'members of the colored race' has replied that it has long been his own practice to write and speak of members of his race as negroes, and when using the term 'negro' as a race designation, to employ the capital 'N'.

Of course the word Negro itself has come to be viewed with disfavour since the 1960s, but was the generally used term before then, and can be heard in speeches of Martin Luther King Jr.

So negro is accepted in Chihuahua because it has sometimes been written without a capital letter, but it is classed as rare because it is seldom written that way now. Whether that reasoning should stand is a question I'll look into another day.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2016, 11:08:22 PM by Alan W »
Alan Walker
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Tom

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Re: Nigger & negro
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2016, 07:37:38 AM »
Thanks, Alan. My curiosity is sated!

Alan W

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Re: Nigger & negro
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2016, 03:23:01 PM »
This issue has come up before, at least a couple of times. In 2013, MK made the same comparison of negro and nigger, and suggested that negro should be classed as a common word, since everybody would know it. In 2015, Tom made the comparison between, on the one hand, dago and nigger (classed as common) and negro (classed as rare). He asked why the first two were not rare.

Before going any further I have to point out, for the benefit of anyone who stumbles on this thread and hasn't seen previous discussions here about offensive words in the Chihuahua puzzle, that words like nigger and dago can be played in the puzzle purely because they are words in the English language, found in standard dictionaries and used in speech and writing. I certainly don't condone the use of such words as racist terms of abuse. In the 2015 discussion, linked above, a non-amos looked forward to the day when such objectionable words would be rare. I'm sure we all do.

I've concluded that negro should remain a rare word, given that it has normally been written with a capital N for several decades, and some players, not knowing the word's history outlined above, would assume it's not a playable word at all.

As regards nigger, American corpus data shows the word having peak usage in the Civil War decade of the 1860s, with a massive 42.69 occurrences per million words of text. This is about as common as the word apple in contemporary texts. After smaller peaks in the 1930s and 1960s, the word's frequency began a steady decline to a little above 1 word per million. One could debate whether articles that don't mention the word itself, but allude to it as the "N-word" are still evidence of the word's familiarity.

But probably this is all beside the point. The fact is, like it or not, we all know the word, so by our definition of a common word, nigger is one.

Incidentally, the usage frequency of the word is not necessarily an index of the strength of racism in any given year. Many of the recent uses of the word are in italics (as in this post) or in quotes. That is, the word is being discussed, but it is not being used. And most of the occurrences of the word are in fiction, in passages of dialogue. These novels are probably aiming in many cases to convey an anti-racist message.

The word dago, mentioned above, is much less often used these days, and I think there could be a good case for making it rare, but I'll look into that another time.
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pat

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Re: Nigger & negro
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2016, 07:42:25 PM »
Going off topic here, but on the subject of word games not allowing words that might be deemed offensive, I was playing one on my mobile and the word 'rape' was rejected!

Les303

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Re: Nigger & negro
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2016, 08:54:31 PM »
More of this political correctness crap .. when are the governments in Australia & around the world going to start listening to the majority instead of the minorities who push for these ridiculous agendas.
Recently in Queensland , it was proposed that the words " merry Christmas " should be replaced with "happy holiday "so as not to offend those in the community who are not of the Christian faith.
Thankfully , common sense has prevailed & the wording of our carols etc. will not be changed.
I just fail to understand how anyone with half a brain could find the way that we celebrate Christmas in Australia as offensive , regardless of your religion.

Alan W

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Re: Nigger & negro
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2016, 11:19:45 PM »
I would recount that incident a little differently, Les.

A politician was a guest on a talkback radio program when a caller said their grandchild's school had held an event at which the words of "We Wish you a Merry Christmas" had been changed to be about "happy holidays". The politician leapt at the chance to deliver a tirade, calling for Australians to "rise up" to defend Christmas against what he labelled "political correctness gone mad". He said the people want to hear Christmas carols because Australia is a Christian society.

It later emerged that the school in question has held plenty of Christmas celebrations, including a concert with carols. As far as I'm aware nobody is trying to stop people saying "merry Christmas" or singing Christmas carols. But we can be sure that every year about this time there will be a story somewhere about "political correctness gone mad" and how somebody is trying to abolish Christmas.
Alan Walker
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mkenuk

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Re: Nigger & negro
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2016, 11:44:04 PM »

A politician ......said the people want to hear Christmas carols because Australia is a Christian society.

.

Is Australia a Christian country?
According to Wikipedia, and unlike UK, where the monarch is also the head of the established religion,  'Australia has no state religion; Section 116 of the Australian Constitution prohibits the federal government from making any law to establish any religion, impose any religious observance, or prohibit the free exercise of any religion.'

As Alan says, there are always self-righteous bigots ready to exploit any opportunity. If they would only get their facts right.

MK


Alan W

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Re: Nigger & negro
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2016, 10:49:14 AM »
You're right, MK, that there is no official religion in Australia. I suppose we could be called a Christian society, on the strength of a majority of the population putting a Christian denomination on the census form, though that percentage is declining.

There's some truth in saying that our culture is partly derived from Christian traditions, though I would say that a lot of the good features of Western cultures come from largely secular movements like the Enlightenment, and from pagan thinkers in classical Greece and Rome.

Conservative writers sometimes try to broaden things a little bit by saying we have a Judaeo-Christian culture, but that obviously wouldn't make sense for defending Christmas observances. I have a feeling the use of "happy holidays" as a replacement for "merry Christmas" originated in the US years before there was any talk about political correctness, and it was to avoid giving offense to Jewish people.

Les, if I seemed to be getting hot under the collar about this, I'm not meaning to direct my ire at you. My objection is to politicians and radio hosts who use their prominent positions to condemn people without taking the time to investigate the facts.
Alan Walker
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Les303

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Re: Nigger & negro
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2016, 12:02:41 PM »
No worries at all Alan & thanks for the clarification as I had only heard a snippet of that radio broadcast & have taken it out of context which is a perfect example of your point about what can happen when the broadcasters sensationalise these issues.

Do you recall the one from several years ago , I think it was a department store in Sydney, where management instructed their trainee santas not to use the traditional ho , ho , ho's but to replace them with a much quieter ha , ha ha.
The reasoning was so that they would not scare small children & people could not be offended by the vague similarity to the derogatory U.S. phrase.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 12:38:30 PM by Les303 »

yelnats

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Re: Nigger & negro
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2016, 05:55:58 PM »
Quote
My objection is to politicians and radio hosts who use their prominent positions to condemn people without taking the time to investigate the facts.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story or tirade!

2dognight

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Re: Nigger & negro
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2016, 06:26:43 PM »
here is my twopenny worth.
shouldn't upset anyone
Happy Solstice

Les303

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Re: Nigger & negro
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2016, 08:10:33 PM »
Hi 2dognight,
It has actually been quite stormy & overcast here in Brisbane this afternoon so unfortunately we will we miss seeing the late setting of the sun.
Never mind as tomorrow we will wake up to our normal glorious sunrise.

I might as well take this opportunity to wish yourself & your family along with all the other players out there a very merry Christmas & a happy new year & if anyone finds that offensive then "tough bikkies ".