Internet English story

[rogue_mother]

E, TR has already told us that he considers only the eastern part of Texas to be part of the South, so it could be that the Texans who say "all y'all" are not true Southerners. And it's certainly true that although Inside the Beltway is south of the Mason Dixon line, most Southerners do not consider it part of the South. Perhaps the "real" South has become obscured in part by latter day carpetbaggers so that non-Southerners like myself can't tell the difference. They speak with similar accents, so how are we to know who the "real" Southerners are unless we are taught by those who know.

[a non-amos]

I live in the Blue Ridge Mountains of western Virginia (as opposed to the state of West Virginia).  I have to agree with Ensiform that I have heard all of these forms (and more), but I do need to add some minor commentary.

If a store advertisement says, "Y'all come back, now!" they are using this in the plural.  They wish to have more than one future customer.  Bring your kith and kin, and have a good ol' time.

Different word usages and vocabularies have their time and place; all of them are priceless when used properly.  In some ways this is like asking what wine is the best or what tool is best; it depends on what you are trying to do with it.  That is a small part of what makes language such a wonderful and vibrant (and delicious) field of endevour.  (Is it legal for an engineer to love language?)

When I am writing a spec, I must use the appropriate language (the rules are strict).  When I am writing global corporate policy, ditto (strict rules, but the rules differ considerably).  When I am trying to sweet talk a US supplier to ensure we have the parts we need when we need them, I usually need to be a fine su'thun gentleman.  When trying to sweet talk a European supplier, it's best to use a hint of a Scots-Irish accent.  When dealing with Mexicans, I am Chilean (obviously this is not in English, but the same principle applies).  It's hard to argue against whatever provides the best communication and gives the best results.

Case in point: Several months ago a white supremacist came into the bar.  He was spouting the most vile and ugly hate-ridden rubbish you never wanted to hear.  My speaking in deep-deep-south got his attention.  The ensuing debate over the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights held his absolute attention.  I proved him wrong, by his standards, and told him "Y'all might want to reconsider your position." (and bought him a beer). 

"Y'all" was used in the demonstrably singular, but the plural was implicit.  He needed to reconsider his position, but his friends also needed to reconsider their positions.  Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think our language has a case for speaking to an individual (singular) and implying a group (plural by the greater meaning?).

Much is left to the artistry and skill of the speaker (or writer), as it should be.  No set of rules could possibly encompass this universe of wonders.

He came back a week later to apologize to many people, and to buy me a beer.  He is no longer a clan member.  He wanted some further advice.  Language can be a powerful tool.

- A

[TRex]

The Wikipedia article on y'all echoes much of what a non-amos wrote -- it is plural, and when addressed to a single person others are implied.

[Tom44]

In regards TRex suggesting he's only heard y'all from folks trying to sound Southern:

One of the early lectures in geography I have heard (passing by classes on the way to my office) which caused me to pause and listen for a while concerned how you define the midwest (in the U.S.)  You can actually get major differences of opinion as to what States are in the midwest depending on what part of the country you ask the question.  I rather suspect the South is the same.  I read TRex's definition of South and would largely agree, but it is hardly definitive.  Missouri is an odd State where half the residents say Missour-ah and often have some part of a Southern accent and half say Missour-ee and typically have less of a Southern accent.  The people where I grew up used y'all a lot and none of them were trying to sound Southern - they were just being themselves.

Side note:  I recall watching a PBS documentary program that suggested the Southern accent in Kentucky/Tennessee was actually based on a Scottish and Irish mixture.  Anyway, I define myself as a midwesterner, not a southerner, but my accent and use of y'all is entirely authentic and comes from my youth.

[TRex]

In regards TRex suggesting he's only heard y'all from folks trying to sound Southern:

I obviously wasn't clear — I've only heard y'all used as a singular form of you from those trying to sound Southern. In my experience, Southerners use y'all as a plural (sometimes implied) and use you as the singular. (I don't recall ever hearing all y'all.) In my experience, Southerners regarded ain't as substandard English (and I suspect would probably regard we'uns, Us'ns, and they'uns the same way), but regarded y'all as good (Southern) English.

(And yes, there are areas in Missouri — and Illinois and Indiana — that have quite the Southern-sounding accent. It would be difficult to draw an absolute dividing line.)

Side note: several weeks ago on the national news (NBC, I think) there was a story about the Texas accent disappearing from Texas due to the influx of outsiders. I have family in Texas, all of whom have quite the drawl, but the story didn't surprise me. As the so-called Rust Belt has decayed and people have left for warmer climates, much of Dixie has become more homogenised.

Returning to my original point: I think modern English suffers from not having a clear distinction between singular second person and plural second person.

[pat]

Returning to my original point: I think modern English suffers from not having a clear distinction between singular second person and plural second person.

I think it suffers even more from not having a generic singular possessive pronoun, the singular equivalent of their. Their seems to be becoming more and more acceptable as a substitute for saying 'his or her', e.g. 'The film critic expressed their opinion' - how ugly is that! It even gets used when the sex of the person is known and there's a ready-made his or her to use.

[mkenuk]

e.g. 'The film critic expressed their opinion' - how ugly is that!

Not only ugly, but grammatically wrong; such a sentence would have received at least two large, red exclamation marks in the margin when I was teaching English in UK.

 'their' can be the possessive for a singular subject such as 'someone', 'nobody' etc. 'Somebody has left their umbrella on the bus' is perfectly acceptable.

In practice, in most sentences such as the one quoted, the identity of the film critic would have been established in an earlier sentence and the correct possessive would be obvious.

Unfortunately, to paraphrase Prof. Higgins, 'Why can't the English learn how to write their language correctly?'

MK

[TRex]

I think it suffers even more from not having a generic singular possessive pronoun, the singular equivalent of their. Their seems to be becoming more and more acceptable as a substitute for saying 'his or her', e.g. 'The film critic expressed their opinion' - how ugly is that! It even gets used when the sex of the person is known and there's a ready-made his or her to use.

Amen!

I keep hoping such usage, arising from an attempt to be 'non-sexist' (i.e. 'politically correct') is a phase which will pass.

'their' can be the possessive for a singular subject such as 'someone', 'nobody' etc. 'Somebody has left their umbrella on the bus' is perfectly acceptable.

I was taught such usage was also incorrect, that it should be 'Somebody has left his umbrella on the bus'.

Some time back, it was proposed that 'Ms' be substituted for both 'Miss' and 'Mrs' as an equivalent to 'Mr'. Perhaps someone could make a similar suggestion for a generic third person singular pronoun which could become accepted. Failing that, I fear the use of the plural form will become accepted —— just as happened with the second person plural 'you' replacing the second person singular 'thee'.

Side question: U.S. usage places a period/full stop at the end of all abbreviation, even when the last letter of the abbreviation is the last letter of the word being abbreviated and for that reason places a period/full stop after the non-abbreviation 'Ms.' to 'match' 'Mr.' Where usage omits the period/full stop ('Mr', 'Dr', Mrs', etc.), is it 'Ms' or 'Ms.' (which still looks like the abbreviation for manuscript to me!) 


.

[ensiform]

To each their own.

I frankly find your prescriptivism regarding "singular they" to be narrow-minded and provincial.  It has been in use since at least the 15th century; it is just another of hundreds of little ambiguities that make English so rich and interesting, and is not a neologism nor an attempt to avoid sexist language (not that there's anything wrong with that, either).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

[pat]

Well I must admit that I've never thought I was either narrow-minded or provincial. Thanks - you've taught me something about myself.

[pat]

Oh, and just to point out the blindingly bleeding obvious - the usage stems back to the 15th century precisely because there's no suitable singular pronoun, and nor is there ever likely to be since pronouns are a closed group of words.

[mkenuk]

'their' can be the possessive for a singular subject such as 'someone', 'nobody' etc. 'Somebody has left their umbrella on the bus' is perfectly acceptable.

I was taught such usage was also incorrect, that it should be 'Somebody has left his umbrella on the bus'.



The example is in fact taken from section 505 of Michael Swan's 'Practical English Usage' a book which has over the years come to be regarded as a 'bible' in matters of English Grammar.

More than that, in the same section Swan goes on to point out that 'they/ them/their' can be used with a singular subject even when the sex of the subject is known:

'No girl should be made to wear school uniform because it makes them look like a sack of potatoes'.

Happy yuletide

MK

[a non-amos]

On a tangential subject . . .

I also find it delicious when the field of history and language intertwine.  This happens rather frequently.

Tom44 - There is a reason Missouri speaks with two tongues.  Please check out the Missouri Compromise and the events leading up to it.

TRex - Did you know there was a mass migration from the South (Kentucky, Tennessee, Alabama, and more) into Indiana and Illinois in the early to mid 20th century?  I cannot cite references, but I was there to see it.  (If you really need a reference to check, please listen to some Chicago Blues.)  They came in search of jobs to make a decent and livable wage, to better their lot in life.  (Yes, I was born in Chicago and raised in Indiana.  I live in the Blue Ridge Mountains by choice.)

The proper usage of "all y'all" or "all y'alls":  This means you are trying to draw the attention of a large crowd, even if you had previously been addressing only one individual.  "Yeah, all y'all(s) can come over to my place; we'll have a jamboree!"

The last time we did that with a full band, the music was echoing back and forth between the ridges and all down the valley.  Neighbors came in from miles away.   

[mkenuk]

On a tangential subject . . .

 there was a mass migration from the South (Kentucky, Tennessee, Alabama, and more) into Indiana and Illinois in the early to mid 20th century?  I cannot cite references, but I was there to see it.  (If you really need a reference to check, please listen to some Chicago Blues.) 

This mass migration is referenced in many places, among them Ted Gioia's 'The History of Jazz' (OUP 1997) (p. 45 'The New Orleans Diaspora'). Among other things, it led to musicians such as Kid Ory and Louis Armstrong moving away from New Orleans to play to bigger and richer audiences in the north.  This was how Jazz / Blues (at that time they were virtually the same thing) became known to white audiences.

MK

[chnaya]

I think that English has become the universal language and accepting more and more types of word and spelling around the world. I do like the new kind of English as it is more convenient But one thing that is more questionable to me when the students use such kind of English in their study too, for me it is a bad impact of the text and using social networking Too much.