Request for standardised treatment of monetary units

[TRex]

Alan,

The monetary units peso and lire/lira are now accepted as common words, but the monetary unit used in Iran, Oman, and Yemen (I'm avoiding the word itself since the current puzzle uses it) is not accepted as a common word (though it is accepted).

IMO, currencies of English-speaking countries ought to be non-controversial common words (e.g. dollar and rand, pound {though that has another common meaning} rupee if India is accounted as an English-speaking country), whilst currencies of other countries should either be consistently common or consistently not common.

What do you think? What do others think?
TRex

[technomc]

As the whole of Europe [apart from the YUK who are only playing at being part of the EU!] now uses Euro's i think the outdated monetary units should be banished altogether from our word lists......

[only joking!!  ]

I suppose we should show complete equality and diversity and inclusivity and include all other currencies...if i knew any i would name them here ->

[rogue_mother]

IMNSHO, there are some currencies that are commonly known, such as franc, peso, and lira/lire, and some that are not, such as sucre, pula, and tugrik. I don't agree that there should be some artificial all-or-none convention for these non-English-speaking countries.

[TRex]

IMNSHO, there are some currencies that are commonly known, such as franc, peso, and lira/lire, and some that are not, such as sucre, pula, and tugrik. I don't agree that there should be some artificial all-or-none convention for these non-English-speaking countries.

What criterion/criteria would you suggest be used to determine if a monetary unit qualifies as a common word? a qualifying population of all countries using a particular unit? a qualifying GDP of all countries using a particular unit?

Is there some objective means which can be used?
TRex

[rogue_mother]

I doubt there is an objective means for determining the qualifying countries, just as there is no objective means for determining the status of other words in Chihuahua. Beyond some basic grammar school level, the existence of a great many words on the common list in Chi is subjective. Once you have "settled" the currency question, there will be some other area that trips you up. Perhaps it will be mathematics or chemistry or slang or who knows what? Our language isn't static. Words that used to be common no longer are, and new words come into wide usage with great rapidity, not to mention the fact that people's varying life experiences provide them with varying levels of vocabulary. The intersection of commonality is not neat and clear cut.

In the nearly two years that I have been playing Chi, the general method for dealing with questions about a word's status is to post a question about it. If you think rial ought to be listed as common, by all means bring it up. Then we could have some discussion about whether riyal should also be common. Blanket categories just don't seem appropriate to me.

[TRex]

With infrequent exceptions, monetary units do not change. Thus, I do not think the platitude about the language not being static applies to monetary units. ISTM monetary units is more akin to the names of the Greek letters. RM, you yourself pointed out the inconsistency of zeta not being classified as common and Alan replied

Zeta is the only Greek letter to be classed as rare in our list, RM, and I'll call it an oversight.

I'm looking for something similar with regard to monetary units.
TRex

[rogue_mother]

When I say that language isn't static, this also applies to currencies. While it's true that currencies don't change very often, when they do, the linguistic memory of them lingers on. The day after shillings stopped being officially recognized as legal tender in Great Britain, I imagine that the word shilling would still have been considered common. Now that some years have passed, shilling is perhaps less well known but still commonly recognized by a very large number of people. In fifty years, shilling may be known only by people who read twentieth century and earlier English literature. I suppose that according to your rule, in order to be "consistent," one would have had to banish shilling to the less common category the same day it was banished as legal tender. I don't go along with that.

When I brought up the question of zeta, I didn't start out by saying there should be a rule to make all Greek letters common. I don't have the Greek alphabet memorized, and I wasn't keeping track of whether zeta actually was the only one that wasn't classified that way. It just struck me that it might be, so I mentioned it.

[technomc]

Ring Ring......end of round one!!!!!

[TRex]

I suppose that according to your rule, in order to be "consistent," one would have had to banish shilling to the less common category the same day it was banished as legal tender. I don't go along with that.

How rude.

Nothing I've written supports an abrupt removal of a word from being classified as common, therefore this was completely uncalled for. I thought this was supposed to be a nice place.


I'm still waiting to see a response from Alan. I'd also be interested in opinions from others (who are capable of civil discourse), particularly those who interested in finding a consistent approach for determining what constitutes a common word.

I still think that with certain classes of words, there should be -- and can be -- consistency.
TRex

[Alan W]

I suppose I'd better add my two cents' worth - says he, attempting to lighten the atmosphere.

Actually, some of us here in Aus still say two bob's worth, even though we dropped our shillings/bobs before the Brits did. That's an order of magnitude more valuable than two cents' worth, by the way.

I myself raised one aspect of currency terms - the units that had been superseded by the euro - a couple of years ago, in this thread. My post started a discussion that went for four pages, but I don't think anyone responded to the question about monetary terms. In that post, talking about the general issue of what makes a common word, I said:

I don't think the common word list should be reduced to the lowest common denominator. My idea of it is not so much words that everybody knows, as words that a regular word game player is fairly likely to know.

This remains more or less my idea of what we should be aiming at. In agreeing that zeta should be classed as common, I said, "Greek letters are used to varying degrees in English - ranging from delta and iota to the likes of upsilon. But it would be difficult to draw a line, and I think it's reasonable to consider that players will have heard of all of them." There are only fourteen Greek letters with names (in our alphabet) of four or more letters, so it was easy enough to verify that they all look fairly familiar.

I doubt that there would be any objective test that would reliably identify the monetary terms that players are likely to have heard of. And if there did happen to be a reliable test based on GDP or some other criterion, it would still need to be verified by what is ultimately a subjective assessment, so what would we have gained?

And this is before we even start to consider complications such as obsolete currencies, names for subdivisions of the major unit (centavos, etc), alternate names (China's yuan and renminbi), slang and colloquial terms, names of coins (dime) and words that also have non-monetary meanings (the Vietnamese dong).

There probably are some questionable classifications of monetary unit words, but I think each of them has to be reviewed on its merits.

Regarding TRex's comments about "civil discourse", I have to say that I can't see anything uncivil about RM's posts. She was trying to explore the consequences of TRex's suggestions, as she understood them.

[pat]

TRex, I think at some time or another many of us have fallen foul of the the idiosyncrasy that is forum chat. This IS a nice place, but often people have strong beliefs about things and are prepared to fully air their opinions. Occasionally other people, who have different opinions, read slights in what has been said. I've been criticized myself for saying things that other people have taken exception to because they didn't agree with me, or they read offence where none was meant.

Everyone is fully entitled to express their opinion but equally should be prepared to have that opinion challenged. I believe that's all r_m was doing.

[technomc]

How long have you been in the diplomatic corps Pat?
You should go into politics....

A 'penny' for your thoughts anyone else???
You can bet your bottom dollar someone will have something else to say... 

[TRex]

TRex, I think at some time or another many of us have fallen foul of the the idiosyncrasy that is forum chat. This IS a nice place, but often people have strong beliefs about things and are prepared to fully air their opinions. Occasionally other people, who have different opinions, read slights in what has been said. I've been criticized myself for saying things that other people have taken exception to because they didn't agree with me, or they read offence where none was meant.

Everyone is fully entitled to express their opinion but equally should be prepared to have that opinion challenged. I believe that's all r_m was doing.

Thank you, Pat. I was taught that it was rude to put words into the mouths of others. I was also taught that it was rude to ridicule others' thoughts. Had I done both together back when I was a lad, my mum would probably have washed my mouth with soap. It was both the putting words into my mouth (or fingers, in truth) and the ridicule which I thought extremely rude.

Alan, thank you for your comments. If you think monetary units need to be considered individually, how about rial? It is used in multiple countries, including some which have an inordinate amount of financial clout due to petroleum.
TRex

[pat]

techno, I'm so glad I wasn't drinking a cup of coffee when I read your first remark - it would have been splattered all over the monitor! Anyone who knows me would howl at the thought of me joining the diplomatic corps since my tendency (preference, indeed) is to 'tell it like it is'. I think that's why I've managed to upset a couple of people on here myself!

[Linda]

Yes, but you are English, pat (see my other comment) and we do like to call a spade a shovel!!